Another Quadcopter

Figured I may as well try a second layer since I've got a few more days until I get the lighter cloth and come up with some better resin.

So...cut two more pieces of cloth - this time making them so the weave goes at 45 degrees to the original layers.

Mixed up some epoxy - still using the gflex but this time weighed it out instead of going by volume, I mixed up 8g total and it was more than enough to wet up both sides.

Since the original layer had had 24 hours to cure at this point I took some 80 grid sandpaper to it and roughed up the surface until there was no shine left and the weave of the first layer was exposed.

Then same basic procedure. Put the cloth down, poured a bit of epoxy over it, and used a gift card to spread it out and squeegee as much as possible off. Flip it over and do the same thing.

Then put it between two sheets of plastic wrap, some nice flat boards and a cast iron grill on top for weight. This time after 3 hours it was less tacky even though it was a bit cooler out. I guess I was more accurate measuring by weight instead of volume, and I was careful to give it more time mixing as well. Even so I gave it overnight.

This morning it's looking really good. VERY stiff and no longer able to twist. Though it is getting noticeably heavier with this 6oz cloth. Very curious to see how many layers of 0.74oz cloth it takes to get as stiff as I'd like..though again I suspect less flexible epoxy will help as well.

But what I've got now is definitely stiffer than the PVC sheet or Lexan sheet...and probably stiffer than the plywood. I'd be very tempted to try doing a full sheet this way and cutting the frame to see how it does.

The one big concern I have is hardpoints. Specifically where my screws go through to connect the layers. While this is stiff and tough it's also a little squishy. I suspect that even with washers trying to bolt layers together won't work well because it will squish and deform. The PVC and PLY did this a little as well...but they were both considerably tougher to squish than this. I know on composite aircraft they usually embed a bit of plywood where they want a hard point, or sometimes just mix up flox and epoxy to create a hard spot. And I could do either. But...that would require more machining steps or careful planning to make sure I prep the right areas before cutting. I'm kind of thinking that instead of drilling 3mm holes like I have in the past I'll drill 5mm holes then fill them with flox/epoxy - then go back and hand drill the holes back out using one of the previous frame pieces as a template. That seems easier than trying to get the work back into the CNC accurately to do a second machining pass.

The other thing I want to try is the technique my friend showed me that he learned at the EAA class (which it sounds like I'll be attending in October or January) They used polyester dress liner fabric as "peel ply" along with cotton batting to absorb extra epoxy. The trick is that epoxy won't stick to polyester. So after you wet up the FG cloth you put a layer of polyester fabric over the top of it then a layer of cotton batting over that - then put it between boards or vac bag it. The excess epoxy will get squished through the weave of the polyester and absorbed into the cotton batting - the end result is not a smooth surface since you have little dimples from where the epoxy went through the weave. But that's a good thing because it leaves a surface suitable for laminating additional layers on.

So I'll probably pick up a roll of batting and a few yards of polyester (Supposedly you can get 100% poly dress liner for about $1 a yard) and give that a try. Should make for a lighter final product without excess epoxy.

Very cool! for the epoxy resin, you might want to look at a product from System Three. I used their general purpose resin with a medium hardener for a hovercraft project that was Styrofoam insulation board laminated with 1/8" ply, and covered in fiberglass. Worked VERY well and did not eat the foam.

Keep the post up! I am interested to see how it comes out!

Ted

We use the West Systems normal Epoxy in boat building. Tough as nails once fully cured.

Lasts forever on the shelf.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Pack-Epoxy-Resin-1-2Kg/dp/B00BAX1UI2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1525397292&sr=8-4&keywords=west+systems+epoxy&dpID=51A5t1NmrNL&preST=SX342_QL70&dpSrc=srch

Thanks for the tips guys. I was leaning towards ordering some resin from US Composites or Resin Research…but a local RC guy hooked me up with a few bottles of MGS 335 Resin. This is some impressive resin, approved for manned aircraft and used for several popular kit/plans built full scale composite airplanes. I’m not sure if he gave me fast or slow hardener…but either way it’s a great product. I’ll have to cut him a few planes with the MPCNC as thanks :wink:

I thought I had posted an update this morning…but I’ve had an issue on this forum lately where sometimes I’ll post something - not get any errors…but it never shows up :frowning: Not sure what’s causing it.

I’ll keep this post short and then try posting the longer update again…

 

Thanks for the tips guys. I was leaning towards ordering some resin from US Composites or Resin Research…but a local RC guy hooked me up with a few bottles of MGS 335 Resin. This is some impressive resin, approved for manned aircraft and used for several popular kit/plans built full scale composite airplanes. I’m not sure if he gave me fast or slow hardener…but either way it’s a great product. I’ll have to cut him a few planes with the MPCNC as thanks :wink:

I thought I had posted an update this morning…but I’ve had an issue on this forum lately where sometimes I’ll post something - not get any errors…but it never shows up :frowning: Not sure what’s causing it.

I’ll keep this post short and then try posting the longer update again…

 

The local RC guy has a lot of experience with glass (he has a lot of composite pylon racers he’s built and competes with) and seemed rather impressed with the little sample piece I did. Was lighter than he expected and surprisingly strong.

Speaking of strength…decided to do some destructive testing last night. I challenged my daughter to try and bend it - she wasn’t able to. Though after she said “I may not be trying hard enough because I like it and don’t really WANT to break it.” :) My wife wasn’t so sentimental. But she still had to put more effort in than she expected to get it to bend. As expected the side in elongation showed no damage but the side in compression collapsed. It did not snap or break though:

[attachment file=59393]

You can also see I tested adding a bolt to it. And if you look carefully you can see it is dimpling the surface like I was afraid it would. And that’s just finger tight into a plastic standoff.

I didn’t do a great job “drilling” the hole either. I just turned on the router on my MPCNC on and jabbed the piece against it - so my hole was a little oblong:

[attachment file=59394]

You can also see the damage from the bend there - Honestly that could be repairable in use…the foam core is compromised, but most of the strength comes from the skin.

Here’s another view of the dimpling…it’s hard to show in a photo. The light I was using is ring shaped which kind of creates reflections that look like the dimpling but aren’t:

[attachment file=59395]

So yeah, looks like I will have to drill larger holes and fill with epoxy/flox to create hard points.

Reading the EAA composite workshop manual suggests also carving out some of the foam around the exposed edges and filling it with flox as well - so I may do that to finish the edges…we’ll see. Still have to laminate up some larger sheets and cut the frame out of them to see if they’ll be usable before I worry about that!

 

So Friday I got my cloth order from Thayercraft. This lighter cloth is amazing. The 0.56oz cloth is crazy thin and light. Even the 1.43oz stuff is amazingly “gossamer” (as my friend put it) compared to “standard” cloths:

[attachment file=59629]

That would be some 8.8oz BID my friend uses on his full scale plane at the top, then the 6oz Bondo cloth I used on my tests in the middle, and the 1.43oz cloth at the bottom. I haven’t taken any of the o.56oz off it’s roll yet to compare…but trust me it’s ridiculous :smiley:

So with good cloth and good resin I was super excited to give it a go Friday night. I swung by the fabric store and got some 100% polyester fabric to use as peel ply - I was told dress liner is usually $1-$2 a yard but no one at the fabric store knew where they had it. The best they found was some sparkly polyester that’s $5 a yard but was 30% off…More than I wanted to spend but I didn’t have time to keep searching that night.

I eventually got home, finished dinner, got the kid in bed and then have a bit of time to do a layup. I cut some 14"x14" square of foam board then cut some 16" squares of peel ply and fiberglass. The FG weighed in at 7g and I had been told to aim for a 50:50 FG:Resin ratio…though my friend later told me that the EAA told him 70:30 is ideal. But with 14g of cloth to go a sheet of foam I figured I’d need 14g of resin. Which worked out well because the resin is mixed 10:3.8 with it’s hardener so that let me use 10g to 4g of hardener to get my 14g of ready to use resin.

Except…I wanted half that much for each side…so instead I started by mixing up 5g of resin with 2g of hardener. Peeled the paper off my foam, laid the FG on instead and poured out the 7g of epoxy…I wasn’t quite able to get it to fully coat though so I had to mix up another 7g. I then covered it in the polyester peel ply, and set it down on top of two layers of paper towels backed by some plastic wrap.

Repeated on the other side - but mixed up 14g of epoxy to start this time. Wound up with more epoxy than I expected leftover though. Again covered with the poly and towels followed by plastic wrap and a flat board with some weights on top and let it go overnight.

I wasn’t sure what kind of cure time to expect. This epoxy system offers two hardeners. Slow which gives 6 hours pot time and takes 2-3 days to cure…and fast which gives 15 minutes pot time and a few hours to cure. But you can blend them to get anytime in between. Didn’t know what I was given but I’m now guessing it’s about a 50/50 blend as it seems that I have about an hour of potlife before it starts to gel and after sitting overnight it’s rock hard.

The next morning I confirmed the leftover epoxy was cured in my mixing cup so I anxiously dug in on checking my layup.

The peel ply pulled right off I was happy to see. Though on one side I had neglected to smooth the peel ply which resulted in some wrinkles and bubbles:

[attachment file=59630]

Once I peeled it off though the surface underneath seemed fine. Just the spots where the ply had bubbled had excess epoxy and were smooth rather than feeling kind of rough like the rest. (The roughness peel ply leaves behind makes the perfect surface to glue another layer to.)

[attachment file=59631]

The other side where I had smoothed out the peel ply looks gorgeous:

[attachment file=59632]

The light 1.43oz cloth gave more strength than I expected…but obviously wasn’t as strong as the 6oz cloth…but it’s a LOT lighter. I was out of town all weekend but when I got back Sunday night I made time to do a second layer rotated 45 degrees before I went to sleep.

That was a bit trickier. With the weave of the cloth rotated it kept wanting to wrinkle and bunch up on me. The second side I started in the center and worked out to the corners instead of the edges and that went much better. And this morning after pulling off the peel ply I had two great surfaces and it was remarkably stiffer and stronger. I think I still need at least one more and maybe two more layers to get the strength I’m looking for…but this seems to be going very well.

The weight history so far:
34g - Stock DTFB
21g - Paper removed
55g - One layer of 1.43oz FG (34g additional, 14g of glass, 20g of resin)
71g - Two layers of 1.43oz FG (16g additional, 14g of glass, 2g of resin?)

I find the numbers for the 2nd layer questionable though. I know the cloth was 14g because I weighed it…but I find it VERY hard to believe I only wound up with 2g resin in there. So I suspect something is throwing off my measurement.

I weighed one of the plywood frame pieces I had started with on this project and it was almost 70g. So I suspect even with 2 or 3 more layers of FG once I cut the frame out of this I’ll wind up with a lighter stronger end piece than plywood.

But still a few days before I’ll be able to judge that!

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