Frustrated by ESTLCam

Mostly Printed CNC - MPCNC Advice
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Hello All
My MPCNC has been completed for 2 months now, and I have yet to achieve any success using it, hence the title.
I am fairly seasoned at 3D printing, and this is my first foray into the Subtractive world, and I was very excited about the possibilities, and now I just feel stupid, since obviously, many people manage to have great fun with their machines.
I am most comfortable designing in Sketchup, but am doing my best to master F360 since getting dwg files out of sketchup is very, shall we say, ‘sketchy’, having very little success with the export-to-dwg extensions I have tried.(I don’t have Pro, just the free version)
Did the crown drawing with a marker… had a problem with scale, never figured that out… it was very large.
I can’t wrap my head around why this project is using additive soft/firmware (Repetier Host/Marlin) for subtractive processes?? Which, as far as I can tell, just requires a bunch of work-arounds to make it work. I find ESTLCam a real challenge: maybe I should elaborate. I wanted to use the MPCNC to drill its own Waste/holddown board in 3/4" Baltic Birch Plywood. I want to mount my board in an elevated position in my table with a dust collection port centered underneath it to provide fine dust extraction from all edges of the work area. To accomplish this, I want to use 3/4" standoffs and to provide the wasteboard with good rigidity, I created a 16 hole grid in the 28"x28" surface. These holes need to be 1/4" through holes with 1/2" dia x 1/4"deep counterbores so that my fastener heads are safely below the surface. I then want to drill a 3" x 3" grid of 5/16" through holes to accommodate 1/4" T-nuts inserted from the bottom to facilitate using workpiece hold-downs… another 81 holes.
So much for the plan. So I thought I’d better do some kind of test… something simple, like just one counterbored hole through a scrap piece of 3/4" ply should be easy, right?
Like I said, that was almost 2 months ago, and I haven’t been able to accomplish even that, so I have spent hours and hours and hours of watching videos and reading forum threads trying to understand what I am doing wrong… and feeling more frustrated and stupid as I go. I can easily produce the drawings, but can’t get usable dwg files that work with ESTLCam, so I went in search of other options, and lo and behold, I found MeshCAM which accepts STL’s YAY! I felt saved, and Meshcam is so easy, it makes ESTLCam look like quantum physics. Alas, it only outputs .nc files. ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!
So, can anyone direct me to some tutorial that should help a stupid person like myself through this gauntlet… I’d hate to take a sledgehammer to my MPCNC in frustration.

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.nc is the same as .gcode. It’s just a different file name but the contents are both gcode. BUT you have to be careful because CAM software doesn’t always generate the gcode in a form that Marlin accepts. I don’t know MeshCAM in particular but there are usually settings or post processors to make sure the output is compatible with Marlin.

I understand it can seem like 3D printer firmware is strange for a subtractive machine but it’s really just utilizing a subset of the motion commands. It’s harmless to leave the extruder unused and temperatures unused. The real “magic” is in the slicer or equivalently the CAM, which it sounds like you are finding all too well. :frowning:

Can you export your drawings in DXF or SVG? Those are the most common 2D formats for EstlCam as far as I hear people refer to. They are pretty standard so I would hope you can export those. For the design you describe a 3D STL will not work well with EstlCam – it will try to surface the whole thing and the holes and pockets will still be bad. 3D in EstlCam is intended for relief carving like models of mountains and stuff like that.

I know you already fought with Estlcam but I think if you can export a 2D DXF or SVG your best odds are with EstlCam because it understands Marlin natively, and the docs have step-by-step instructions.

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I am still very green here; as in more fails than successful carves.

I have learned a few things that helped me, I hope they can help you.

  1. scaling. Set a work area grid in estlcam import your file with different relative measurements until it looks right.

  2. make sure you “set home” once you have everything positioned correctly on the mpcnc.

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If it was Ryan’s gcode in the test crown, then it is probably a misconfigured steps/mm. Do you have 16T pulleys and 1/16 microsteps?

Marlin supports way more boards than grbl. Ryan does most of the working around. Grbl also doesn’t support LCD.

I haven’t used meshcam, but it needs a postprocessor for Marlin. Is there one?

I don’t understand how stls would be a good idea for the 2.5D CAM you’re trying to do. DXF makes more sense to me. I am not sure what you’ve actually tried in those two months, so I’m not sure how to help. But I use onshape.com and what you’re asking would be pretty simple. Just make a new sketch, draw out your circles, dimension them, then export the sketch as a .dxf. Open it in Estlcam and make some helical holes.

Before going on to milling your own gcode, we should make sure your machine checks out by fixing this scale issue.

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I don’t know what all you’ve tried, so I’m going to recommend starting over.

The first thing I would do is try to figure out why the crown came out so large. If that isn’t printing correct, then nothing else will work.

Marlin is just a firmware for the controller. It doesn’t know if what you’re doing is additive or subtractive. It just knows to take the Gcode coming in and turn motors based on those values. The same can be said for repetier. All it’s doing is creating a pretty picture and sending the gcode out to the controller.

I use F360 for my designs too. Once you have a design finished, you want to right click the schematic that you want to cut and select ‘save as dxf’. ESTLCam does a better job importing dxf files. Be sure and remember whether your design was done in mm or in. When you import the dxf into ESTLCam, you’ll need to select the appropriate scaling based on what your F360 design was done in.

Be sure and go through the milling basics here:

https://docs.v1engineering.com/tools/milling-basics/

That should help make sure your ESTLCam is setup with the correct values to output Gcode that the Marlin controller can use.

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Convert the dwg files to dxf for Estlcam - ensure units are consistant throughout.

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I understand this is very frustrating. I find that missing a single step in the instructions can cause far reaching frustrations like this. Don’t worry we are here to help.

First issue you mentioned. Scaling. I can think of two reasons for this. 1 is you may have missed a step in the milling basics David linked earlier. There is a step that you will tell ESTLCAM to use mm or inches. If the crown was drawn in mm and you import the file and select inches it will scale up 25.4 times bigger than expected.
The second possible problem could be your steps per mm in your firmware. When you tell your machine to move 100mm does it move exactly 100?

You mentioned confusion about the choice of marlin firmware. Firmware is just a way for the machine to accept commands. Move here then move there. With 3D printers that firmware will also use commands to extrude plastic along the way. With the MPCNC it is simply dragging a spinning bit as it moves. The real difference in software for additive vs subtractive is the use of a slicer vs the use of CAM program. They both export their commands out into GCode or NC files that marlin can interpret.

With that said I would suggest you go back through the milling basics and make sure all your settings are correct. That is a good CAM program that we can help you with. Don’t skip any of the steps in the tutorial.

As for fusion 360 you are using as a CAD program to generate your DWG files. That is like using a space shuttle to drive to work. It can be done but it would be easier for a beginner to use something easier. I use Onshape.com. Just create the 2D sketch and export it as DXF, SVG, or DWG. Any of those will work for you. Others around here will suggest other programs that are really easy to learn but that is the one I chose. Onshape has a ton of tutorial videos and you would only need to watch the first basics video and one about how to draw Sketches.

However we can also help you with fusion 360. Same story. You would just need to draw a sketch and then export it. The export option is hard to find buts it is there. Just ask and we can help. Try to take it one step at a time.

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Inkscape is another really good choice for a program that can export the 2D files you need.

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For simple 2d cuts I usually use:

  1. Create in gimp, to create a black/white image, save as .png
  2. Open in inkscape, select, go to paths>trace to bitmap. Then delete original, select new lines, and use inkscape to scale it to the right size, then save as .DXF (make sure to save in mm)
  3. Open in EstlCAM and create paths to carve/cut

For more precise 2d cuts (like spoilboard holes, etc):

  1. Create the sketch in Fusion360
  2. Right click on the sketch (work tree), and save as .DXF
  3. Open in EstlCAM and create paths to carve/cut

Once your settings in EstlCAM and Fusion360 are correct, you very seldom fail.

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Thank you Aaryn, Jamie, Jeff, Ben, Bluff and Chris for your replies and suggestions. you have renewed my hope.
CAD/CAM/Vector Drawing programs: Aaryn, I am sure you are right about missing something when I use F360 so here goes. My project is to create a hold-down/wasteboard so I can try to do some simple stuff, and I can’t bring myself to drill/counterbore it by hand since this type of thing is exactly why I built the MPCNC in the first place, right? So, I do everything in MM’s and I determined that the crown was just 2.54 x… my first shot at motion and I miss-chose the inches/mm choice when importing the file into ESTLCam. So thanks for the help on understanding that. Onward McDuff!

I am definitely struggling with the Fusion learning curve and have shied away from trying to learn add-ons like Guffy’s post processor for MPCNC when I can’t seem to successfully wrap my head around the basics. Maybe I spent too much time with Sketchup… which, for me, was fairly intuitive. Fusion frustrates me since even the basic tools like zoom etc. are reversed to what I am used to. I have persevered, and got the completed drawing with all the holes and counterbores laid out, proper dimensions, yada yada, and then I can’t get an output file I can use. As for DWG files that some of you have mentioned, I do not use those, I have learned how to create dxf files from my sketches but you are so right Aaryn, Fusion is a 3D design program and the comment about using a space shuttle to drive to work is spot-on. I can get my part all drawn out with its 100 or so holes, and when I use the P keyboard shortcut to project it for saving as a dxf file, there is only 1 hole! The original hole that I drew, from which I created the Rectangular pattern, is the only one that shows up! So if anyone can clue me in on what i am doing wrong there, I’d be very thankful. I have watched several of Lars’ tutorials and some from Product Design Online, and they are very helpful, but mostly concerned with 3D design.
ESTLCam is short for Easy STL Cam. Sketchup produces STL’s and will probably be adequate for most of the things I will want to rout, but since my wasteboard is larger than the cutting area of my MPCNC, I can’t do the 3D part drawing and use ESTLCam because it insists on attempting to mill the perimeter, and I can’t find a way to tell it to ignore it since the two choices that it offers when I open an STL: Auto or Manual Machining both automatically program for that perimeter. If there is some way I can turn that off, I’d be very thankful for that solution as well.
I have taken a brief look at Inkscape since I understand that for most projects, vector drawings are perfectly adequate for 2D and 2.5D routing. I d/l’d Inkscape and installed it, but when I opened it, and began exploring, I also found it counter intuitive and faced with learning yet another program just made me wince. I will take a look at Onshape today, but my thoughts are that surely I already have the tools (programs) that can do the job, I just have to learn how to use them properly, right?

I have to say that I may have committed a faux pas here since this is probably the wrong forum area to be bringing these issues up, so sorry. Since I should have been showcasing my build here, maybe I will at least redeem myself a bit with a description of my design. I hesitated to offer many pictures since I wanted the wasteboard in place before I did that. The primary difference/innovation road that I went down was to avoid the legs, since I wanted to get as much rigidity as possible. I did this by building, what may be best described as a Foosball Table design, in that the printed corner stacks that hold the rails are mounted directly to the table perimeter without the legs/bases. This design offers a bonus of a chip/dust containment that I hope will work well with my wasteboard (If I ever get it made) elevated and a dust collection port underneath it. I know that I can’t expect that setup to evacuate all the chips but I am hoping that it contains and extracts the dust. I will then just vacuum out the chips manually as required.
I designed and printed my own drag chain and belt anchors/tensioners using 10mm belts. I designed and printed the enclosure for the electronics, and am planning an arduino constant-speed controller for the 500watt Chinese spindle.
Yes, I will post more pictures and if anyone wants STL’s or drawings of what I have done, I’d be happy to share.
Specs:
Rails are 1" Stainless tubing
Steppers are 84 oz/in NEMA 17
RAMPS 1.4 w/Display and Controller w/DRV8825 drivers
Spindle is 500w Chinese with dedicated power supply and speed control
Other power requirements supplied by a converted 300w ATX
X motion: 550mm
Y motion: 630mm
Z motion: 100mm

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The reason it is showing only one hole is you will need to un-link the holes after creating them I believe.

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Right click on the face of the design that you want to cut on the MPCNC and select ‘create sketch’. This will create a new sketch that has all of the elements from the face you selected.

Click on ‘finish sketch’. Now save that new sketch as your dxf and it should have all of the holes you’re wanting.

I wish I was on my home PC. I could make a quick video for you :confused: I’ll try to get that done this evening when I get home if you’re still having problems.

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Thanks Chris
There is no chain icon in any of the sketches so there are no links
Just watched Lars tutorial about linking/unlinking but I do not have an assembly, so no components either

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I sympathize with your frustration but IMO you’ve simply jumped into the deep end and are trying to run before learning to walk. You acknowledge Fusion has a steep learning curve – which you’ve still only partially traversed – and resist looking at Onshape and Inkscape because you don’t want to spend time learning yet another program. Thing is, you really don’t have a grasp on any of them yet and are caught betwixt and betweeen.

My suggestion is go with something you know and are comfortable with, initially. Sketchup is a perfectly good option for your 2D needs – including the wasteboard you want to do – using the SketchUCAM plugins for CAM and gcode generation. I think SketchUCAM is free and available from the Openbuilds website (you’ll probably need to register to get the download link but it’s free and they are some good folks)… but you may want to google it. My late fishing/flying buddy and I designed and cut “zillions” of foamboard RC aircraft using Sketchup/SketchUCAM. It’s been years now since I’ve used it but, in addition to the RC planes, I also used it to design and cut the parts for a 2nd MDF CNC machine for my buddy.

Also, you can create DXF files from Sketchup… but to avoid scaling issues IIRC you had to insure you were in Camera/Top view and switch to “3d projection” vs. “perspective”. DXF comes in different “flavors” (versions) IIRC… some will import into other programs fine, some won’t. If it won’t, I use a CAD program like LibreCAD and simply load in the problematic DXF file (it’ll take in most any DXF) and then save it off in a different DXF version… IIRC “R14” seems to work most of the time.

I’m talking off the top of my head here, so take what I’ve said with a grain of salt. But I think I’ve given you some good information. Good luck!

– David

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See. I told these guys would help. I love this forum. Glad you posted here.

One more bit of advice that hasn’t been given yet. In fusion 360 you can get into the user preferences somehow in the top right. I forget how off hand. But in there you can set the pan zoom tilt control scheme to match other programs you might be used to. You can also check a box that will invert the zoom direction.

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I don’t think you can export dxf in the free version out of the box. Or at least not in the version I use… I refuse to upgrade to the “cloud”, sketchup has gone down hill for me since Google sold it.

I’m going to have to check out sketchucam for myself, thanks for mentioning it.

Op, I also like to use librecad for 2d parts. It’s a little less intuitive than sketchup but not hard to get the hang of. It mostly works fine for me but beware it hasn’t been updated in nearly two years, I don’t know if development is dead or not. Based on this thread I’m going to take another look at onshape. (Edit) it’s the cloud, nvm.

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OK! First of all, Thank you all for your kind advice, your sharing of knowledge, and your encouragement!

I successfully drew a grid of holes, including counterbores in Fusion, and used ESTLCam to produce some g-code, then cut that pattern in my styrofoam test block!! Yahoo!

Back to the drawing board now to re-draw my spoilboard drill pattern and see if I can get that done. Once that’s done I am off to the races, as they say, (At least us old farts say that…lol). I can get the t-nuts inserted and install it into my table, hook up my dust extraction and start (babysteps) learning how to do CNC routing as easily as I do 3D printing.

If all goes well, I will likely buy ESTLCam, and I will have to see if I can find and try to use SketchUCAM.

20/20 hindsight tells me I should have come here for help earlier, and probably saved myself a lot of trouble and angst, but that’s not productive… better just to say if any other noobs like myself are reading this and having trouble getting their MPCNC or Low Rider up and running, Aaryn, Kyle, Jeff, Jamie, Ben, David @niget2002 , Bluff-chuffer, Chris and David @dkj4linux were VERY helpful in getting me over my challenges, and I’m sure they will be able to help you too. Just ask. As for myself, I’m learning all the time and would be happy to share what little I know with this community, and last but not least, thank you Ryan @vicious1 for your inspirational design and your generous sharing.

Bob

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When to ask for help is a tricky balance. You need to go your own way first, and explore the space, but then ask for help when you are spinning your wheels, or when you missed a step. Unfortunately, it is so hard to tell if you missed a step or are not making progress until later. Glad it’s working for you, and your frustration has evaporated.

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I’m glad you got it figured out bud. Once it clicks, the frustration melts away and the fun begins again! Until the next thing that doesn’t click in your mind at least!

A whole world of possibilities opens up once you get the software figured out. I’ve got WAY too many ideas, and not enough lumber to put them into practice right now. The wife is limiting the amount of supplies I can bring into the shop at the moment… For some reason, she thinks stupid little things like BILLS are more important…

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This is why my wife and I have our own accounts with ‘toy’ money in them. I don’t question what she buys and she doesn’t question what I buy.

I also found it was a WHOLE lot easier paying bills when I didn’t have to budget for her shoes/clothes expenses…

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